Red this on the JL audio facebook page lately........

[ttocs]

so are we a go for the vid then?

[shawn k]

so are we a go for the vid then?

Sure why not

[ttocs]

cool. I figure ohm out a cable so that we can see that it is complete and makes a complete connection on both ends. Slap one end on the terminal, the other end to ground and like ya said with in 30 secs nothing should happen.

[GlasSman]

Don't forget fusing the RCAs...

Funny.

Fusing alt to batt is overboard and errs too much on the side of caution.

But that thread is a very useful pool of info.

[ttocs]

still waiting for someone to post a vid shorting that cable out to prove that. Glassman do you have a video cam?

[GlasSman]

still waiting for someone to post a vid shorting that cable out to prove that. Glassman do you have a video cam?

I think everyone owns a video camera with them being standard issue on cell phones for the last few years.

I would be more than willing to do the demo but unfortunately this time of year I have all my gear ripped out as I do every year.

Let me see if I can conjur up someone that I've done an install for that would let me do the demo.

Not making any promises but I'll see what I can do.

Maybe I can get someone over on DIYMA to do the demo.

So short out charging cable from batt to Alt and see if damage occurs to the alt?

[GlasSman]

cool. I figure ohm out a cable so that we can see that it is complete and makes a complete connection on both ends. Slap one end on the terminal, the other end to ground and like ya said with in 30 secs nothing should happen.

I'm not Mr. Electrical engineer or anything....but if you connect the POS cable from the alt and complete a circuit to ground....that would more than likely destroy the voltage regulator unless it regulates the output voltage down because of the ground connection....I would call this a safety feature.....if it works.

The question is.....how long can the regulator handle a short?

[ttocs]

doesn't matter if you have gear in your car or not all you need is an alt and a piece of wire. Show in the video that the wire has continuity on both ends then slap one end on ground and the other end to the charging lead and hold it for 30 secs. If you walk away with your alternator working I will salute you and say the fuse isn't needed. If you smoke your alt and need a new one, well that is on you since its overkill to fuse the charging wire....

[zeropoint0.5]

maybe these two fellas can help you guys out to make a vid

[ttocs]

should not be that hard. Anyone saying its overkill and not needed should be confident enough to do the test on their own car.

[shawn k]

Glassman: I wouldn't bother making a video man. It's quite silly to potentially destroy your alternator just to prove a point.

If Scott wants "proof" that a fuse located at the alternator is necessary then no one is stopping him from making his own video and "proving" us wrong.

Although unlike Scott, I'm not an ass and I still wouldn't recommend him doing this as it could still potentially ruin his alternator.

Let me explain...

I've been thinking about this off and on over the past couple of days and something about this scenario struck me. An alternator has a "maxumimum" current rating. The alternator will provide this maximum current at a specific rpm. It also needs a load in order to dump current as well as create a magnetic field in order for it to remain self sustaining.

This means that even in the event of a short on the charge cable, the alternator is still only capable of dumping the maximum current that it's rated for

So let's say that your alternator is rated for 100 amps. Some would think it would be logical to fuse the alternator with a 100 amp fuse. This obviously makes sense to some people here, but here's where they are wrong... Since this is a 100amp alternator, and the fuse inline is also 100amps, it is more than likely that the fuse won't even blow even if a short occured! You must understand that a 100 amp fuse will not blow at precisely 100amps! Fuses only blow when they exceed their ratings for a certain amount of time.

So one might think "well simply use a fuse rated for slightly less than 100 amps and problem solved right?" WRONG.

First, you never want to limit the current that the alternator is capable of. It's pretty counter productive to install that bad-boy 160amp High Output alternator if you're not going to get every last bit out of it right?

2nd.. Using a lower rated fuse opens up the possiblity that you could blow that fuse while the vehice is on and or even when you're driving. So let's say that you think it's feasible to fuse your 100amp alternator with a 90 amp fuse. Now let's say that your driving down the freeway with the AC on and bumping your toons at a good clip, but not necessarily full tilt. At this point it is possible that your system and accessories are "on average" drawing current that is close to that 90 amp fuse you have down there at the alternator. So now your favorite tune pops on and you crank your system up full tilt. You have just easily exceeded the full 100amps that your alternator is capable of and at the same time you have blown that 90 amp inline fuse. But you of coarse don't realize that the fuse blew because now the entire car (and all accessories) is running off of the battery. The only way that your going to know that you blew that fuse is when the car stalls on you in the middle of the highway because the battery has now been depleted

In the scenario above, any other vehicle would have been fine since the battery would have supplied the extra current needed that the alternator could not provide. Now this not a "perfect world" and yeah it's true that if you continued to drive like this (AC going, Stereo full blast etc...) then eventually the alternator will most like give out on you "at some point", but it's pretty unlikely that someone is going driving like this for a significant amount of time (like hours on end). Also considering that music is dynamic, it's possible that the alternator could still charge the battery in between dynamic peaks in the music.

Even if the alternator were loaded heavily, the difference between using an underrated fuse and not fusing at all is time. It can take only a moment for the fuse to blow and cause you headaches, but if you don't have a fuse and allow the battery to supplement, the alternator "may" fail prematurely, but it will still take a significant amount of time..... AND you won't get stuck on the side of the road everytime you bump your system!

[ttocs]

if I am an ass shawn its because it takes on to know one. not sure if I am the pot or the kettle now.

So shorting that wire, might smoke your alt now? Strange the story has changed now that you were put on the spot.

[shawn k]

Nothing has changed. I stand behind everything I've said

You need to go back and read again what I've posted

[ttocs]

so when will the vid come out? since nothing has changed you did say you would make one.

[ttocs]

so are we a go for the vid then?

Sure why not

Since nothning has changed.

[shawn k]

LOL!

Again.... Instead of the constant arguing, how about you go back and re read all of the posts and actually try to comprehend something... I'm serious man! Are you really not capable of this? I find it amusing that you never offer any solid information even with your 10,000 posts! Just go back and really take a look at what I've been posting. You are WAY of basis!

And for the record, I never stated that I was going to make a video. This was your idea the whole time , and this whole time I've been waiting for YOU to provide a video!! Aren't assumptions a Bitch!!??

[ttocs]

Thats cool I can understand why you changed your tune after you hade some time to think and probably ask some people. You can try to turn it around on me but the only reason you have given is that "its unlikely anything would happen to it" or some other perfect-world BS like that. It remains that the stock wires have a fusable link inline and to not do it is just lazy, or stupid.

[shawn k]

Ok, so I havn't "changed my tune" at all. I debated that it's not necessary to install a fuse the alternator and I STILL view it that way. I'm not sure how or why you think I've changed my view on this.

I'm also not trying to "turn" anything around on you. You had your view on the topic, and I had an aposing view. It's called a debate man. And I don't see why any of us have to "potentially" destroy something just to have a valid debate!

Finally. Yes, it's true that many times there is a fuse for the charge cable And this fuse is going to be locate at/near the battery and NOT the alternator!!! as I've said multiple times within this thread. There IS a difference, and the long post I did above explains why!

If you want to add a fuse at the alt in your car... then by all means go for it, but you will be susceptible to the problems that I've described. Your car your call.

[ttocs]

Ok, so I havn't "changed my tune" at all. I debated that it's not necessary to install a fuse the alternator and I STILL view it that way. I'm not sure how or why you think I've changed my view on this.

I'm also not trying to "turn" anything around on you. You had your view on the topic, and I had an aposing view. It's called a debate man. And I don't see why any of us have to "potentially" destroy something just to have a valid debate!

Finally. Yes, it's true that many times there is a fuse for the charge cable And this fuse is going to be locate at/near the battery and NOT the alternator!!! as I've said multiple times within this thread. There IS a difference, and the long post I did above explains why!

If you want to add a fuse at the alt in your car... then by all means go for it, but you will be susceptible to the problems that I've described. Your car your call.

Take a closer look at those stock charging leads and you will normally see a link on both ends.

"the problems" my system will be susceptible too = a minute voltage loss that might be applicable if we were in a big spl rig?

There is a chance before the high current fuse blows that it could do some damage to my alt but you mean YOUR car will be susceptibel to all those problems. You unwillingness to put your money were your mouth is should prove it to everyone after you said you would why a $10 fuse holder is a good idea. So not doing the vid should be just as valuable as doing it although not nearly as enjoyable as watching you melt down your alt....

[00goobs]

Actually, I was bored one day and came across a DIY MIG welder using a 24volt 200+ amp alternator and a lawnmower engine. If the fusible links aren't in the alternator cable, I think it will arc and burn the wire then blow if your hands don't get burned.

Recently, I had a short to ground and my battery melted, burned the ground insulation off and shut the car down. The alt is still fine. The drop in voltage shut the alt field wire and the alt won't make power without voltage there....

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[ttocs]

I too have seen times where welding would have been the best description of what was going on, or unintentional welding would be more like it.

$10 your car your choice.

[shawn k]

Take a closer look at those stock charging leads and you will normally see a link on both ends.

That is not true

"the problems" my system will be susceptible too = a minute voltage loss that might be applicable if we were in a big spl rig?

That is not the ONLY Problem you face. Go back and read my long post on this page. Apparently you havn't done so. You should, you might actaully learn something. Although I'm not confident that you even have the aptitude to comprehend any of this. I'm not trying to be a dick here. I'm completely serious. You simply are not comprehending any of this, OR you're just not reading my posts yet are preceeding to just argue.

There is a chance before the high current fuse blows that it could do some damage to my alt but you mean YOUR car will be susceptibel to all those problems. You unwillingness to put your money were your mouth is should prove it to everyone after you said you would why a $10 fuse holder is a good idea. So not doing the vid should be just as valuable as doing it although not nearly as enjoyable as watching you melt down your alt....

My car (any car) would indeed face these same problems. I never said they/it wouldn't!! Putting a fuse at the alternator that is rated the same as the alternator is futile. This is simply a case of "screwed if you do, screwed if you don't". It's really that simple.

I never had any intention of making some video .... again, this is YOUR idea. Hey go for it, if you think it's absolutely necessary! I'm not sure why I must make some video that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You have taken this way off track. You want me to make a vid that doesn't even coinside with my statements. Why the hell should I do that?

If you would like to continue debating this, please proofread your statements. I can't even follow half of what you're saying.

[shawn k]

Recently, I had a short to ground and my battery melted, burned the ground insulation off and shut the car down. The alt is still fine. The drop in voltage shut the alt field wire and the alt won't make power without voltage

Many alternators have a "field" sensor that is a form of protection so I'm not surprised that your alternator is fine. Some systems don't have this protection however, which is why I have left it out of the discussion as not to add any further complexity.

[ttocs]

you can keep throuwing the pc insults out, make fun of the fact I don't give a crap about spelling or grammar(hell the fact that it annoys you makes me threw in a few typos on purpose now) or trying to twist crap around but I am sure anyone reading this with half a brain and $10 will have a fuse there on the charge wire if they do a big 3 upgrade.

[shawn k]

you can keep throuwing the pc insults out, make fun of the fact I don't give a crap about spelling or grammar(hell the fact that it annoys you makes me threw in a few typos on purpose now) or trying to twist crap around but I am sure anyone reading this with half a brain and $10 will have a fuse there on the charge wire if they do a big 3 upgrade.

LOL.

It's not insults man. I can live with a few typos or improper spelling here and there. but SERIOUSLY, half of your previous post absolutely made no sense.

Who knows what anyone will take away from this thread. I feel I have contributed some solid, useful information. I also feel that all you have done is argue (not the same as debating!) as well as misconstrue most of what I've said. But unfortunately, that's nothing out of the ordinary.