active or passive

[kg1961]

hi guy im getting ready to order cables etc for my install
so far I don't think I will use my 8" jl zr door subs
but I will be using my jl zr650 mids and tweeter 6.75 "
I think I can get the mid bass I need without the mid bass subs.

now I own a audio control dqx and controller
if I use it I can go active but I have never done so-kinda of chicken shit to but if it will be a night and day difference I will.
also this has a 30 band eq on each set of rca outs
it can do a fair amount but it would take a lot of time to use and tune right.
not sure if I have the time or patients

do I use the audio control or just use the xover in the amps? the amp will be jl hd600/4 and 1200/1 the subs will be jl 13.5w1v2
I think either way will sound good but I have never used the jl zr and some companys spend a ton of time and money to make a great xover like pg elite/morel and boston acoustics

I have 4 channel and the xover can be bi amped with ease..
lmk guys thoughts

the car is a 2012 santa fe suv

[ttocs]

I too have never done an active system but I am looking forward to it when I get the car back on the road. Don't be scared of it. Yes there will be more time spent tweeking it but that is part of the fun for me.

[knightrider358]

Once u go active ull never go back

[knightrider358]

I always use my amps on by or full and use my hu or control up front, gives u more control and adjust when and how

[knightrider358]

hi guy im getting ready to order cables etc for my install
so far I don't think I will use my 8" jl zr door subs
but I will be using my jl zr650 mids and tweeter 6.75 "
I think I can get the mid bass I need without the mid bass subs.

now I own a audio control dqx and controller
if I use it I can go active but I have never done so-kinda of chicken shit to but if it will be a night and day difference I will.
also this has a 30 band eq on each set of rca outs
it can do a fair amount but it would take a lot of time to use and tune right.
not sure if I have the time or patients

do I use the audio control or just use the xover in the amps? the amp will be jl hd600/4 and 1200/1 the subs will be jl 13.5w1v2
I think either way will sound good but I have never used the jl zr and some companys spend a ton of time and money to make a great xover like pg elite/morel and boston acoustics

I have 4 channel and the xover can be bi amped with ease..
lmk guys thoughts

the car is a 2012 santa fe suv

Mike set ur amps to by or full. Then use the dqx, it has internal 4way xover, then use its infinite eq for final tweeking.

[knightrider358]

Also actives allows urself to adjust the xover points how u like it. Even thou there are great passives out there, they are fixed so u can adjust them, active allows so much more to be done

[kg1961]

hi guy im getting ready to order cables etc for my install
so far I don't think I will use my 8" jl zr door subs
but I will be using my jl zr650 mids and tweeter 6.75 "
I think I can get the mid bass I need without the mid bass subs.

now I own a audio control dqx and controller
if I use it I can go active but I have never done so-kinda of chicken shit to but if it will be a night and day difference I will.
also this has a 30 band eq on each set of rca outs
it can do a fair amount but it would take a lot of time to use and tune right.
not sure if I have the time or patients

do I use the audio control or just use the xover in the amps? the amp will be jl hd600/4 and 1200/1 the subs will be jl 13.5w1v2
I think either way will sound good but I have never used the jl zr and some companys spend a ton of time and money to make a great xover like pg elite/morel and boston acoustics

I have 4 channel and the xover can be bi amped with ease..
lmk guys thoughts

the car is a 2012 santa fe suv

Mike set ur amps to by or full. Then use the dqx, it has internal 4way xover, then use its infinite eq for final tweeking.

yes it has a 3way xover I know but Im not sure if its needed. my life is super busy with a ton of project on the go work home kids
I understand being able to adjust but its time
all my years I have never gone active
I will be spending time and money to not take up space in the car for kids crap etc.

[Eric D]

For most people the difference between active and passive will be night and day, but only because they have the active setup wrong, so it sounds worse than the passive.

Active has the "potential" to be equivalent or even better in some instances, but your typical DIY car audio enthusiast has neither the equipment nor the ear to tune an active setup correctly.

Run the tweeter at too low a point, and "poof" you burn up tweeters daily. Run the x-over point too close to the vocal range and you end up with unnatural or distorted vocals, which even an untrained ear can pick up (but not necessarily fix).

If you like tweaking stuff, and are willing to invest a bit in some test equipment (hell even an RTA app for a smart phone will get you somewhere), then going active takes your car audio experience to that next level.

For me the ultimate challenge is DIY passive. If you build your own passive you have the most flexibility, but possibly the greatest cost and frustration. You can use an active to get in the ballpark, and then build your own passive filters to meet those points, but with passives you can pick the slope and point, and even build in equalization filters as needed. This often requires a box of spare parts and lots of soldering until you get it right. Another suggestion I have for people is to take their stock passive crossover and rebuild it using higher end parts. Most factory passive filters have the points and slopes in the right spot (a good manufacturer will spend a great deal of time getting this right), but will use the lowest of low end parts to cut costs, and these parts are seldom up to the same performance level as the component drivers themselves are.

[capea4]

For most people the difference between active and passive will be night and day, but only because they have the active setup wrong, so it sounds worse than the passive.

Active has the "potential" to be equivalent or even better in some instances, but your typical DIY car audio enthusiast has neither the equipment nor the ear to tune an active setup correctly.

Run the tweeter at too low a point, and "poof" you burn up tweeters daily. Run the x-over point too close to the vocal range and you end up with unnatural or distorted vocals, which even an untrained ear can pick up (but not necessarily fix).

If you like tweaking stuff, and are willing to invest a bit in some test equipment (hell even an RTA app for a smart phone will get you somewhere), then going active takes your car audio experience to that next level.

For me the ultimate challenge is DIY passive. If you build your own passive you have the most flexibility, but possibly the greatest cost and frustration. You can use an active to get in the ballpark, and then build your own passive filters to meet those points, but with passives you can pick the slope and point, and even build in equalization filters as needed. This often requires a box of spare parts and lots of soldering until you get it right. Another suggestion I have for people is to take their stock passive crossover and rebuild it using higher end parts. Most factory passive filters have the points and slopes in the right spot (a good manufacturer will spend a great deal of time getting this right), but will use the lowest of low end parts to cut costs, and these parts are seldom up to the same performance level as the component drivers themselves are.

Fantastic response!
Totally agree, and that's rare

[Renovatio]

Well in my opinion active system is ok, when you have evrything tried and find the best places for speakers. You can have focal utopia, but some who has a cheaper audio install but better speker places, more knolege, he will perform better. But when you build passive system, and again, find the best places for speakers and use a active crossoever the sound is more alive, its even more realistic, more warmer. But to reach that you have to have a tons of experience and knolege in electronic whne you building an active crossover.
Lets come back to speakers and gear, when you have the best speakers with all other components, you dont have the best result, thats often problem with guys spending 100000k dollars and more on sq setups ang geting beated by a setup with budget of 2000k dollars, that what happend with my friend.

http://www.audiodirbtuves.lt/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2837

This link shows the gear and build traver in some time, and this guy with his 2000 dollars car took 2 place in sq proffesionals group leaving beahind cars that had budgets 100000 k dollars and more i think, cars that had accuton speakers made by special orders, milbert amps thous are skyhigh piced...

[kg1961]

My budget is lower
The car is newish so stock locals for now

I think i will just do bi amping see if it will be ok for what i want if not save up to redo my doors with the mid bass subs and still do semi active

[shawn k]

For a quick (ease of use) solution, a passive xover is the way to go Mike.

If you can invest the time and put in the effort to learn and understand the benefits of an active system, the performance is absolutely superior to that of passive components. Couple this with the abundance of todays affordable and amazingly capable processors, all it takes is a little effort to learn how to tune properly (basic tuning is not hard at all).

Power Factor is a problem with passive components. Any capacitance, and or inductance that is inline with the speaker is going to cause a phase shift between voltage and current. The speaker itself actually has some capacitance and inductance, but it is nowhere near that of passive components used in a passive xover. Using passive components ultimately means that the driver will not see the full power from the amplifier. There will be moments when the voice coil sees maximum voltage, but minimum (or at least reduced) current, and also times when the VC will see maximum current but reduced voltage. We all know that Power is the product of Volts times Amps, so hopefully you can see how a phase shift of V & I will be a problem.

Power Factor becomes even worse with more components...meaning an even larger v/i phase shift with high order slopes. This will never be a problem with an active system.

The reason why you see multi thousand dollar home speakers (and car too) with passive components is simply for ease of use. You can still get "good" performance from speakers that use a passive xover, but never the "best". Fact of the matter is, if all of your home speakers required processing and multiple amps (as well as tuning time) for each and every driver, sales would be non existent. So yes, there is a "large" requirement for passive xovers in the market place, but it has nothing to do with performance, it's all about sales! Now take a look at those ultra high end speaks that are used in recording studios these days, and you will certainly find that most of them utilize active crossovers.

[kg1961]

thanks Shawn/Eric and others I think I will just bi amp for now
I have more than I need when it comes to power I have way to much for the subs so I can turn things down


thanks again guy I will have to update when I start getting things installed

[Eric D]

I think the important point I want to make here is that active is not "superior" to passive.

And I am not going to make the argument that passive is somehow "superior" to active, either, because it is not.

There are plenty of active systems that will beat passive systems, and there are plenty of passive systems which will beat active systems as well.

To suggest that active systems are "best" and passive only exists for ease of use is very foolish. When you reach the threshold of $10,000 home speakers, ease of use gets thrown out the window. Many people will hire others to install their high end home equipment, so they don't care what equipment they need, or what it takes to set it up. Both high end active and high end passive home speakers exist. The only people who are going to argue which is "best" are going to be the owners of the products, attempting to justify their respective purchases.

Shawn, you can continue to try and convince others that active crossovers are superior, as you have every right to your opinion. However, your opinion is not automatically fact, and trying to present it as such won't help make your case.

I am going to stand by my "opinion" that active crossovers are not a good idea for your typical car audio enthusiast, as few people have the resources to actually get them setup right and performing better than the stock crossovers included with their speakers.

I have no statistics to back this claim up, but I am going to throw out a guess of a number that only 5% of people out there will actually be able to pull off an active crossover setup, and have it beating average or even above average passive setups. Keep in mind that probably only 10% of people in car audio actually understand what is going on when you "bridge" a stereo amplifier. Although bridging and active crossovers are not related, one has to achieve a certain level of understanding to even attempt an active crossover setup. Most people do not have this level of understanding.

Shawn, I hate to resort to personal attacks in any online argument, but the certainty with which you present your position does not leave me a lot of wiggle room. It is very apparent you have been reading since the last time you and I argued about this very topic. For this I commend you. Most people will just cling to their confirmation bias without attempting to further research a topic of discussion. You have thrown out the concept of "Power factor" to reinforce your side of the argument, but you have not learned enough about this concept to fully understand it. Power factor is not a "problem" with passive crossovers, as you claim. It is indeed a "part of" passive crossovers, but stating it is a problem is very misleading. Anyone who has experience with passive crossover design (like maybe those guys who have been doing it for 30+ years while working for manufacturers) won't have any issues with it. Unless I am missing something, this argument is about the "performance" of passive and active crossovers. My best guess is performance can be broken down into output level, and overall sound quality. Unless a particular design is a really poor one, power factor will not affect the sound quality of the system. The competent engineer will design their system taking it into account. Now, yes output level could be a trade off when dealing with power factor, but I am confident most people will not notice the difference.

[shawn k]

Shawn, I hate to resort to personal attacks in any online argument, but the certainty with which you present your position does not leave me a lot of wiggle room.

Too funny man. If it somehow makes you feel better to "attack" than feel free! It's quite amusing really.

Yes, I do "read" as well as study, as well as experiment on a daily basis. I'm the type that feels that you can never stop learning and I strive to learn more. Too bad I can't say the same for you I see you're still here dishing out the same old "Eric says" bullshit since day one. It's sad, no pitiful really. How about you at least make an attempt to learn a little something? And I don't mean from me because you obviously haven't learned a damn thing yet .. I could give a shit really, but it's unfortunate that you are satisfied with the mediocre. I've come to realize that you truly do have a limited understanding of this field even though you talk a good game. From the day that I joined PP, so much of what I've seen coming from you is purely garbage, and you don't know how to handle it when someone has a different view and or calls you out on it. Even with sound, factual information, you somehow still love to fight the facts. Man I wish I could be so blind... WAIT, NO I DON'T! But it's cool. Perhaps someday you'll learn... eh, probably not

[Eric D]

Shawn, I hate to resort to personal attacks in any online argument, but the certainty with which you present your position does not leave me a lot of wiggle room.

Too funny man. If it somehow makes you feel better to "attack" than feel free! It's quite amusing really.

Yes, I do "read" as well as study, as well as experiment on a daily basis. I'm the type that feels that you can never stop learning and I strive to learn more. Too bad I can't say the same for you I see you're still here dishing out the same old "Eric says" bullshit since day one. It's sad, no pitiful really. How about you at least make an attempt to learn a little something? And I don't mean from me because you obviously haven't learned a damn thing yet .. I could give a shit really, but it's unfortunate that you are satisfied with the mediocre. I've come to realize that you truly do have a limited understanding of this field even though you talk a good game. From the day that I joined PP, so much of what I've seen coming from you is purely garbage, and you don't know how to handle it when someone has a different view and or calls you out on it. Even with sound, factual information, you somehow still love to fight the facts. Man I wish I could be so blind... WAIT, NO I DON'T! But it's cool. Perhaps someday you'll learn... eh, probably not

I am going to quote you here in the event you decide to edit your response.

[shawn k]

HAHA! Why would I edit? I meant every damn word of it

Here, I'll even quote myself again for ya just so there's not confusion

Shawn, I hate to resort to personal attacks in any online argument, but the certainty with which you present your position does not leave me a lot of wiggle room.

Too funny man. If it somehow makes you feel better to "attack" than feel free! It's quite amusing really.

Yes, I do "read" as well as study, as well as experiment on a daily basis. I'm the type that feels that you can never stop learning and I strive to learn more. Too bad I can't say the same for you I see you're still here dishing out the same old "Eric says" bullshit since day one. It's sad, no pitiful really. How about you at least make an attempt to learn a little something? And I don't mean from me because you obviously haven't learned a damn thing yet .. I could give a shit really, but it's unfortunate that you are satisfied with the mediocre. I've come to realize that you truly do have a limited understanding of this field even though you talk a good game. From the day that I joined PP, so much of what I've seen coming from you is purely garbage, and you don't know how to handle it when someone has a different view and or calls you out on it. Even with sound, factual information, you somehow still love to fight the facts. Man I wish I could be so blind... WAIT, NO I DON'T! But it's cool. Perhaps someday you'll learn... eh, probably not

[Eric D]

Thanks!

[kg1961]

Sorry guys there are always 3 sides to every coin
I feel you are both friend's and i have learned a lot from
Both of you.
You are both very educated in the audio relm
Have a good night everyone i will leave it at that

[shawn k]

Sorry guys there are always 3 sides to every coin
I feel you are both friend's and i have learned a lot from
Both of you.
You are both very educated in the audio relm
Have a good night everyone i will leave it at that

Blah! I'm sorry Mike. As usual, I was only trying to help, but it's hard to deal with the BS sometimes

[trickyricky]

Now i understand why Shawnk has the ohms law avatar and Eric that signature....you guys don't need to be arguing . Both are well known members and well respected..

[knightrider358]

Now i understand why Shawnk has the ohms law avatar and Eric that signature....you guys don't need to be arguing . Both are well known members and well respected..

I second that! Lets not one piss the other off too much. But are well respected members here who bring their own experience and knowledge to this great place!

[Eric D]

Shawn is not going to rain on my parade too much. I am beyond the point of really caring anymore. Car audio has been on the back burner for me for several years now.

I don't even have a system of my own anymore, and have almost zero ambition to install one.

I am not done with audio though, I have been working on my home theater for about 6 months, and the work will be ongoing for at least a year more to get to where I want to be with it.

[vwdude]

I can't contribute any scientific data (nor do I want to get into that argument) but I can add my experience as I attempted to go active. I used a JBL MS-8 for the processor and a mcintosh 6 channel for my 3 way dynaudio components. I must say I was under impressed for the effort. The reason I included what equipment it was is the JBL is not the best processor and maybe a better processor would have yielded better results, and the mcintosh didn't have a whole lot of power. If I used my ZPA amps in an active system (like Shawnk) it also might have yielded better results. The truth is I had better results bridging 4 channels into 2 to run the mid and tweeter passive and then run the midbass active on it's own channels. Again, with limited power. The same system was then tried all passive running off the zpa and I had plenty of power and sounded great but the midbass didn't have the same impact.

If I could get my hands on a decent DSP then I'd try active again, especially since I now have enough ZPAs to power the system. I know that there is a benefit but it might not be worth the time, effort, and extra cost for everyone to go through to accomplish those improvements. Plus running active for me means I would need 4 amplifiers since I am using 2 channel amps. For now I plan to passive in my new car. For a dedicated show car or competition car there's no reason not to go active. My car is a daily commuter car where I need room for tools and parts and then part time family car with car seat and stroller. I don't have space for the equipment, the time to tune it, or the will to fight with my wife to give me the time.